Two years too late I will post a conversation that I “agreed to post” and never did.
The reason I thought of this is that I realized that authoritarian socialism and fascism are quite different (this conversation was from before I had decided that I was Marxist). They are in some ways similar in that Authoritarian socialism and Fascism both are abstract ideas that can be applied to any country in contrast to Nazism which is only for Germany. But they are different in that Fascism is all about authority within a capitalist regime, holding it together for its own sake, whereas Authoritarian Socialism is about Authority after a Marxist Revolution and based around Marxist theory.
When I think about it, I am a Marxist, but more of a Socialist than a Communist. I believe Communism is something based on material conditions that do not exist to achieve it. It is but a utopian goal for the future, not a materialistic goal for the present. By the way, I do not believe this view contradicts Marx’s view (but even if it did Mussolini and Hitler did not agree on everything, Obama and Biden do not agree on everything, Stalin and Lenin did not agree on everything).
Here is the conversation I thought of when writing this post.
[13:10] free media productions: Hey man – check out that Guideline for Islamic Governance post on the Editorials
[13:10] free media productions: I posted that mainly for you, as I noticed several pragmatic, almost Machiavellian type references within it
[13:10] free media productions: very rational, far from “theocratic” in the traditional sense – it’s from the blog of President Ahmadinejad lol
[13:11] austin2359@gmail.com: i will
[13:11] austin2359@gmail.com: i’m studying certification garabage lately
[13:11] austin2359@gmail.com: but i will when i read it agian
[13:14] free media productions: ok cool (good luck w/ your studies)
[13:14] austin2359@gmail.com: thanks
[13:14] austin2359@gmail.com: i’m reading now
[13:15] free media productions: i was quite impressed by the sensible degree of political realism contained within that
[13:15] austin2359@gmail.com: he talks about being leniant , is that the part you eman
[13:16] austin2359@gmail.com: “those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than yours, they are human beings like you.” that’s probably less reactionary (though i’m reactionary in my own way) than taliban
[13:17] free media productions: lol yes – Taliban don’t even consider Shiites muslims
[13:17] free media productions: lol
[13:17] austin2359@gmail.com: lol that’s shays’s favorite regimes
[13:18] free media productions: The Taliban definitely were anti-liberal
[13:18] free media productions: lol
[13:18] austin2359@gmail.com: an islamic republic may be more tolerant to other religions than a theocracy
[13:18] austin2359@gmail.com: though none will like anti-islam speech
[13:18] free media productions: it’s not altogether a revealing document, but i thought it was interesting in providing insight into religious-minded regimes
[13:19] free media productions: true; but it’s just like nobody in the Soviet Union would’ve tolerated anti-Communist speeches
[13:19] austin2359@gmail.com: certainly
[13:19] free media productions: or the US, in the past, punished those who spoke out against US war (Alien & Sedition Act)
[13:19] austin2359@gmail.com: of course if i was iranian, i’d shut my mouth until i had an oppotune time to effect change
[13:19] free media productions: lol
[13:19] free media productions: some claim that Ahmadinejad is planning on usurping control from the Ayatollah
[13:19] austin2359@gmail.com: do you believe it
[13:20] austin2359@gmail.com: and in your book is that goodi
[13:20] free media productions: not for a second
[13:20] free media productions: that would be very interesting
[13:20] free media productions: Our Iran-news guy, Al-Nasrallah, is big on the SUpreme Leader
[13:20] free media productions: I’m not so much
[13:20] free media productions: I like Ahmadinejad as a head of state
[13:20] free media productions: but I’m more sympathetic to Sunni Islam myself
[13:21] free media productions: for starters, it meshes well with socialism
[13:21] austin2359@gmail.com: and sunni islam doesn’t have that belief that deifies the suns of muhammad
[13:21] free media productions: and opposes dynastic, hereditary class
[13:21] free media productions: exactly
[13:21] free media productions: lol
[13:21] austin2359@gmail.com: islam puts big stock into not worshiping human beings
[13:21] free media productions: precisely
[13:21] free media productions: and Sunni islam has played a very progressive role
[13:21] austin2359@gmail.com: look at it this way. islam took the number of gods to 3.
[13:21] austin2359@gmail.com: i mean 1
[13:22] austin2359@gmail.com: athiesm takes it to 0
[13:22] austin2359@gmail.com: lol
[13:22] free media productions: true
[13:22] free media productions: Also, Saddam was secular, but he was influenced by his Sunni Islamic faith
[13:22] austin2359@gmail.com: i agree with you though he wasn’t a literalist
[13:22] austin2359@gmail.com: but culturally
[13:22] austin2359@gmail.com: obviously
[13:23] free media productions: Correct
[13:23] austin2359@gmail.com: ie stalin was influenced by his orhtodox training
[13:23] free media productions: Exactly.
[13:23] austin2359@gmail.com: people say his writing style reflected it
[13:23] austin2359@gmail.com: even though he was ahteist
[13:23] free media productions: Stalin even made many of his speeches in that style
[13:24] free media productions: I also like Sunni Islam’s anti-clericalism
[13:24] austin2359@gmail.com: you mean anti divinity of the clerics
[13:24] austin2359@gmail.com: they can still be clerical if they take a taliban approach
[13:24] free media productions: Yes, the divinity part
[13:24] free media productions: but also their rejection of hierarchical, systematic clergy
[13:25] free media productions: unlike Twelver Shia, Sunni believes you can depose of a Teacher or Jurist, and they’re never beyond rebute
[13:25] free media productions: *rebuke
[13:25] austin2359@gmail.com: the thing is, when you look at religous people, you realize that most of them aren’t reaching their concluisons on the basis of philosophy but on inherited traditions
[13:26] austin2359@gmail.com: so it may no not be that they are anti-clerical but think the koran forbids it and then go with what they think the koran says
[13:26] free media productions: True, but that’s of no great importance, since the ends are what matter anywas
[13:26] free media productions: *anyways
[13:26] free media productions: obviously that’s the perspective of an atheist, lol
[13:26] austin2359@gmail.com: that’s try in the since of alliance
[13:26] austin2359@gmail.com: *true
[13:27] austin2359@gmail.com: its true for pragmatic people
[13:27] austin2359@gmail.com: pragmatic people are willing to let someone they otherwise disagree with do work for them
[13:27] free media productions: yes – which is why we should be pragmatic in form, and ideological in content
[13:28] free media productions: use all sorts of different means to reach our stated ideological goals
[13:28] free media productions: even if it mean allying with unsavory folks
[13:28] austin2359@gmail.com: in other words, if you hired richard kuklinski to kill someone, just as an analogy,k you wouldn’t really care if he was using the bible as his motivation
[13:28] free media productions: it pays to be teleological
[13:28] free media productions: correct.
[13:28] austin2359@gmail.com: but you realize this stance is extremely cynical and conservative
[13:28] austin2359@gmail.com: and would be disliked by many marxists
[13:29] free media productions: yes, but if more Marxists were like that then maybe they’d have done better by now (in the West, anyways)
[13:29] free media productions: lol
[13:29] austin2359@gmail.com: possibly
[13:29] free media productions: They’d probably be doing better than they are now..
[13:29] free media productions: who the hell cares about Marxism in the West?
[13:29] free media productions: Nobody.
[13:30] free media productions: Unfortunately
[13:30] austin2359@gmail.com: do you regard usa as a lost cause
[13:30] free media productions: never a lost cause, as I believe things will inevitably change
[13:30] free media productions: but for the time being, i”m not exactly hopeful that I’ll see revolution here in my time
[13:30] free media productions: which is also why I focus a lot of my time on anti-imperialist issues
[13:30] austin2359@gmail.com: its probably more likely to go far right than far left
[13:30] austin2359@gmail.com: imo
[13:30] free media productions: since we can’t really wage class-warfare here in the US
[13:31] austin2359@gmail.com: not to oversiplify
[13:31] free media productions: it really depends on the petit-bourgeois middle class
[13:31] free media productions: they actually have quite a bit of power to determine things in the United States
[13:31] free media productions: I could possibly see the petit-bourgeois taking a turn towards fascism
[13:31] free media productions: if the economy continued the way it’s currently going
[13:31] free media productions: or worse
[13:31] free media productions: and attempt to severely restrict the bourgeoisie
[13:31] austin2359@gmail.com: i agree, though it probably won’t be called that
[13:31] free media productions: and reign it in
[13:31] austin2359@gmail.com: i’m using the fascism online
[13:31] free media productions: no, they won’t call it anything
[13:32] free media productions: lol
[13:32] free media productions: it will just likely happen
[13:32] austin2359@gmail.com: but w’e're not that dumb
[13:32] austin2359@gmail.com: lol
[13:32] free media productions: without a mentioned ideology attached
[13:32] free media productions: but the bourgeoisie has the ultimate power, for the time being, so it may also make unexpected changes…
[13:32] free media productions: who really knows!
[13:32] austin2359@gmail.com: one thing is sure. the current unregulated state of capitalism cannot be relaibly sustained
[13:33] free media productions: nope – not in the least bit
[13:33] austin2359@gmail.com: even if it is fixed now, it will just crash again later
[13:33] free media productions: yep, that’s the cyclical destruction of capitalism
[13:33] austin2359@gmail.com: its like building a bridge and not using steel underneith it
[13:33] free media productions: good analogy
[13:33] austin2359@gmail.com: like wood or something
[13:33] free media productions: yeah, it really is
[13:33] free media productions: it’s unsustainable for the long term
[13:33] free media productions: otherwise, why the hell would they have to keep modifying capitalism to such an extent
[13:34] austin2359@gmail.com: and i believe it is unsustainable because there is no cohesion
[13:34] austin2359@gmail.com: so we are convergent on our collectivism
[13:34] free media productions: capitalism is nothing now what its original proponents would have ever imagined
[13:34] free media productions: true, society crumbles because of innate class divisions
[13:34] free media productions: and classes, as determined by relations to the means of production, have contradictory interests
[13:35] austin2359@gmail.com: that’s a standard marxist answer.
[13:35] austin2359@gmail.com: but it has some truthperhaps
[13:35] free media productions: ha
[13:35] free media productions: i don’t think that though just because marx said it
[13:35] free media productions: marx said a lot of things i disagree with
[13:36] free media productions: you can see it for yourself
[13:36] austin2359@gmail.com: it’s only true to the extent that the masses aren’t ideologically dedicated to cohesion
[13:36] free media productions: but do you really think ideology can bring together classes of people who have very distinct material interests?
[13:36] free media productions: For instance, ideolgoy won’t placate workers who are fighting with the bourgeoisie over increased living standards
[13:36] austin2359@gmail.com: not without being oppressive and “totlaltarian” but its worth it
[13:37] free media productions: but see then you’re forcing the state to put more resources just to trying to keep opposite forces together
[13:37] free media productions: it’s like having to hold two polar sides of two magnets together
[13:37] free media productions: they’ll repel once you let your hand slip
[13:37] free media productions: and in the meantime, you’re stuck holding everything together
[13:37] free media productions: which is time, money and resource cosuming
[13:37] austin2359@gmail.com: i guess that’s why the hand can’t slip if you view authoriatarianism as a permanant necessity
[13:38] austin2359@gmail.com: i guess the difference between you and i is that i think even if you get rid of capitalism
[13:38] austin2359@gmail.com: authoriatrianism is still just as necessary
[13:38] austin2359@gmail.com: no matter what metric is used to measure goods
[13:38] free media productions: sure, you don’t have to get rid of authoritarianism
[13:38] free media productions: get rid of capitalism
[13:38] free media productions: and the bourgeoisie
[13:38] free media productions: and then you can use your authoritarian tools for doing many, many more things
[13:38] austin2359@gmail.com: you can, but even so, the polar magnet analogy still applies
[13:38] austin2359@gmail.com: as soon as you let your grip, gorbachev happens
[13:39] austin2359@gmail.com: i’m for an enternal grip
[13:39] austin2359@gmail.com: authoritarianism is my ideology
[13:39] free media productions: but that’s because under Gorbachev new material classes were formed
[13:39] free media productions: revisionism in the USSR created new groups that had polar opposite interests
[13:39] free media productions: the magnet ideology came into place again
[13:39] free media productions: that wasn’t true under Stalin
[13:39] austin2359@gmail.com: i agree but let’s say one day stalin said go ahead and vote, i’ll take away the kgb, i’ll back down the police
[13:39] free media productions: who had no intentions of allowing the bourgeoisie to remain
[13:40] austin2359@gmail.com: i bet the result would be pulling apart almost immediately
[13:40] free media productions: well why did you back down the police in the first place?
[13:40] free media productions: and why did you need the police in the first place?
[13:40] free media productions: you only shoot yourself in the foot if you are authoritarian for authoritarianism’s sake
[13:40] free media productions: you create conditions where society is artificially held together
[13:40] austin2359@gmail.com: human beings need checks and balances
[13:41] free media productions: true, but it should be done with a goal in mind as well
[13:41] free media productions: not just arbitrarily
[13:41] free media productions: otherwise you’re sewing the seeds for forcing the population to lash back at you
[13:41] free media productions: Stalin on numerous occasions let up on the purges
[13:41] free media productions: and society didn’t go into upheaval
[13:41] austin2359@gmail.com: that’s true , propaganda, pragmatism and authoritarinaism should be mixed
[13:41] free media productions: because their material needs were met, and overall they benefitted under socialism
[13:41] free media productions: exactly
[13:42] free media productions: never lose sight of other things that the government can use as well
[13:42] free media productions: but history has shown that being authoritarian just for its own sake won’t keep your regime in power very long
[13:42] free media productions: people won’t make the sacrifices for nothing, they need to have an interest in it as well
[13:42] free media productions: which also helps keep them productive, loyal and willing to defend the system
[13:42] free media productions: even if it’s authoritarian
[13:43] austin2359@gmail.com: that’s true but that doesn’t necessarily necessistate a 5 year plan style command economy
[13:43] austin2359@gmail.com: it just means people have to feel they aren’t abandoned
[13:44] austin2359@gmail.com: ie right now my feeling toward the us government is that it couldn’t give a shit about me. if everyoen thtought that way, the regime woudl be in trouble.
[13:44] free media productions: true, it doesn’t necessitate a five-year plan style command economy
[13:45] free media productions: you could try some other examples, but unless they completely do away with a mixed class system, then you’re going to run into the same problems as before
[13:45] free media productions: either you’ve got an usntable, chaotic economy
[13:45] free media productions: or you’ve allowed new social goups with opposite interests to form, which now have to be controlled just because they have opposite interests
[13:46] free media productions: you should take this conversation and post it in a thread in the Forum – we should continue this in more depth
[13:46] austin2359@gmail.com: alright. i’ll save it for now. i think that is how the american media and govenrment work. pressure groups have too much influence.
[13:47] free media productions: they do
[13:47] free media productions: and just going back to the economics question
[13:47] free media productions: your own technocratic aims will be hindered if you have to forestall progress to allow business and private industry enough room to create conditions conducive to generating profits
[13:47] austin2359@gmail.com: what neo-nazis don’t get is that these same problem would exist in a world were everyone is racially an identical twin
[13:47] free media productions: YES
[13:48] free media productions: that is exactly the problem with national socialism/nazism
[13:48] free media productions: lol if everyone was white, but there were still classes, then you still have contradictions that break up society
[13:48] free media productions: you can’ expect to avoid all the problems associated with liberalism and capitalism if you don’t do away with the multi-class society
[13:49] free media productions: it may not happen right away, but it will inevitably catch up
[13:49] austin2359@gmail.com: in order to have deal with class you either need a govenrment that facilitates between them (fascism) or to elimiante them or you get polarization
[13:49] free media productions: exactly
[13:49] free media productions: and my biggest problem with fascism is that it tries too hard to facilitate
[13:49] free media productions: and should instead smash the bourgeoisie wholly and completely
[13:50] free media productions: but then you don’t really have fascism anymore…you’ve moved to authoritarian socialism 
[13:50] free media productions: there’s always been authortiarian socialists who don’t necessarily subscribe to Marxism-Leninism
[13:50] austin2359@gmail.com: yeah there are similarities in that i believe fascists are class conscious
[13:50] free media productions: to be honest, i’m sympathetic to class-conscious fascists, and believe they are certainly people whom I could work with
[13:51] free media productions: i know a few in real life, and i’ve successfully converted them to more socialist ideals
[13:51] free media productions: but they’re not M-L
[13:51] austin2359@gmail.com: mussolini makes comments about class warfare but accuses marx of abusing the concept
[13:51] austin2359@gmail.com: but does blame capitalism
[13:51] austin2359@gmail.com: for it
[13:51] free media productions: yeah i’ve read some mussolini
[13:51] free media productions: not much though
[13:52] free media productions: Mussolini should’ve stayed communist
[13:52] free media productions: or socialist, rather
[13:52] free media productions: he would’ve been a good ally of the USSR
[13:52] austin2359@gmail.com: it may have partly been opportunism. he got kicked out of the party so he formed a new oine
[13:52] free media productions: true lol
[13:52] free media productions: from what i’ve read about him, that sounds about right
[13:52] austin2359@gmail.com: allying with hitler was also oppotunism
[13:52] austin2359@gmail.com: he was going to ally with britain
[13:53] austin2359@gmail.com: and couldnt
[13:53] free media productions: true
[13:53] free media productions: though Britain is bad news, too
[13:53] free media productions: but Mussolini was against the Soviet-German non-aggression pact
[13:53] austin2359@gmail.com: that’s true
[13:53] austin2359@gmail.com: though hitler wasn’t very sincere about it himself
[13:53] austin2359@gmail.com: obviouly
[13:54] free media productions: true
[13:54] free media productions: though some of the nazis were sincere
[13:54] free media productions: i.e. Ribbentrop, for instance, wanted to have the USSR join the Axis and wage war against the US and Great Britain
[13:55] austin2359@gmail.com: the nazis didn’t have clear ideology other than race-focus
[13:55] free media productions: True, and I think many didn’t really care about that
[13:55] free media productions: the Third Reich was full of opportunists, and people who just wanted some power
[13:55] free media productions: the real ideologues were always a narrow circle
[13:56] free media productions: others would have equally been willing to serve in any other gov’t
[13:56] austin2359@gmail.com: they even made exceptions for favorite jews called honoary aryans. and germanized some slavs. so they were inconsistent
[13:56] austin2359@gmail.com: though mroe consistent on the jews
[13:56] free media productions: lol es
[13:56] free media productions: *yes
[13:56] free media productions: it’s too bad Goebbels was a Nazi
[13:56] free media productions: and a real believer, too
[13:56] austin2359@gmail.com: i gurantee you this.
[13:56] free media productions: he would’ve been a great Stalinist
[13:56] austin2359@gmail.com: jim crow law never had “honoary blacks”
[13:56] austin2359@gmail.com: they had free blacks though i guess
[13:56] free media productions: lol nope
[13:57] austin2359@gmail.com: so the nazi race ideals weren’t even biologically legit
[13:57] free media productions: no, i tend to see the nazis as ideologically sloppy
[13:57] free media productions: and juvenile
[13:57] free media productions: after Molotov visited Nazi Germany in the late 1930s, he laughed at the Nazi Party and joked about it to Stalin
[13:57] austin2359@gmail.com: mussolini was not so that’s probably why he didn’t tease about allying with ussr. on the other hand, mussolini didn’t attack ussr
[13:57] austin2359@gmail.com: in the end, hitler did more to hurt ussr
[13:57] free media productions: True
[13:58] free media productions: Well Italian units participated in Operation Barbarossa IIRC
[13:58] austin2359@gmail.com: the japanese were just classical natioanlists. not really revolutioanry.
[13:58] free media productions: yeah, nothing really spectacular about them
[13:59] free media productions: nationalist and of course imperialist (spreading contorl throughout the far-east)
[13:59] austin2359@gmail.com: the croats even expolicitly saved serbs and jews who became catholic. some race when you can be saved by converting out of it
[13:59] austin2359@gmail.com: but the croats i guess were a diffeent ideology
[13:59] free media productions: true
[13:59] free media productions: In my view, most nazis were just cynical
[13:59] austin2359@gmail.com: i think the turks didn’t kill armenians who converted to islam
[13:59] austin2359@gmail.com: i think
[13:59] austin2359@gmail.com: but can’t verify
[14:00] austin2359@gmail.com: if you believe in it, as i do
[14:00] free media productions: i don’t
[14:00] free media productions: fuck armenia
[14:00] free media productions: lol
[14:00] austin2359@gmail.com: lol
[14:00] austin2359@gmail.com: the nazis were the most extreme, killing even ireeligious and german sympathizing jews
[14:00] austin2359@gmail.com: the croats made execeptions for croat sympathizers of serbs and jews
[14:01] free media productions: i think the croats were just playing favor to the Germans when they had to, and trying to avoid imposing Nazi policies if it wasn’t aboslutely necessary
[14:01] free media productions: by and large, of course there were sincere Nazi Croats
[14:01] austin2359@gmail.com: i’m not sure. you know more. i’d like to learn morea bout them
[14:01] austin2359@gmail.com: i think the romanians did the same thing
[14:02] austin2359@gmail.com: they killed large numbers of jews.
[14:02] austin2359@gmail.com: but under the accusation that they were communist]
[14:02] austin2359@gmail.com: not to elimiante every jew
[14:02] free media productions: i honestly don’t know too mcuh about some of the other occupied territories
[14:02] free media productions: the Romanians pussed out later one when the Red Army came around
[14:02] austin2359@gmail.com: clerical fascists are looked down upon imo
[14:02] austin2359@gmail.com: by me
[14:02] free media productions: you mean like the Falange?
[14:02] austin2359@gmail.com: i’m not sure who that is
[14:03] austin2359@gmail.com: like the croats
[14:03] free media productions: oh Catholic Fascists in Spain
[14:03] free media productions: yeah like them
[14:03] free media productions: Franco was a clerical fascist
[14:03] austin2359@gmail.com: ah. i’m not sure but franco was more of just a traditional nationsalist
[14:03] free media productions: yeah they get kind of blurry
[14:03] austin2359@gmail.com: i’d say more of a traditionalist. religious
[14:04] free media productions: true
[14:04] free media productions: though there’s so many damned definitions of fascism out there
[14:04] free media productions: though most aren’t correct
[14:04] austin2359@gmail.com: that’s very true.
[14:04] free media productions: it’s idiotic just to call every right-wing authoritarian regime “fascist”
[14:04] austin2359@gmail.com: i agre
[14:04] free media productions: unless its propaganda
[14:04] free media productions: like the Soviets did
[14:04] free media productions: lol
[14:04] free media productions: which was to their benefit
[14:05] austin2359@gmail.com: fascism is supposed to be the idea that collective support of hte state is the end in itself
[14:05] austin2359@gmail.com: not support of the chruch
[14:05] free media productions: they wanted to dispel any connection between “socialism” in “national socialism” and the nazi regime
[14:05] austin2359@gmail.com: not support of a race
[14:05] austin2359@gmail.com: that’s true
[14:05] free media productions: true
[14:05] free media productions: hey man i’ve gotta go but we should talk more about this on the Forum
[14:05] free media productions: good talk to you! cya
[14:05] austin2359@gmail.com: cya. i recorded the earlier party ou told me
[14:05] austin2359@gmail.com: in a word docuemnt
[14:06] free media productions: cool thanks!
[14:06] austin2359@gmail.com: i’ll post some time